Episode 169: Controlling the Controllable
/Show transcript:
Welcome to The Broad Experience, the show about women, the workplace, and success. I’m Ashley Milne-Tyte.
This time…trying to control what we can control in this crazy world we inhabit in 2021. Including, getting paid for our work.
“What I have to do is go, this is my rate, and then shut up. That’s very hard. Because my tendency would be: this is my day rate, but of course you might not want to pay that and I can offer you a discount…you start to talk yourself out of it if you’re not careful.
Coming up on The Broad Experience.
The beginning of this year does not feel like the last new year – doesn’t feel like any new year I’ve ever known. Much of the world is still engulfed by the pandemic. Many of us if we’re working have been working at home for months. When I moved to America almost 25 years ago I could never have imagined the situation we now find ourselves in where Americans just violently invaded the seat of government.
By the time a lot of you hear this Joe Biden and Kamala Harris should have been sworn in as president and vice president…maybe this year can redeem itself soon.
Since there is so much we can’t control at the moment we are gonna talk about what we can do – that is, take the reins of our own career. Which most of us are now having to do from behind a computer.
And we’re gonna talk about a subject I’ve covered in the past that I still think about: women offering their services for free.
My guest started 2020 on a high, then everything ground to a halt, and by October it seemed like her new business was done.
You’ve met Lisa Unwin before. Just over two years ago I did a show called The Comeback. Lisa starred in that show, she’d co-written a book called She’s Back about women coming back after career breaks.
Lisa is from Sheffield, in Yorkshire. These days she lives in London with her husband and teenage kids.
The year after we last spoke she co-founded another business, Reignite Academy. Its aim is to get lawyers back to work after a career break, sometimes a long break – anyone, but of course it is almost entirely women they work with.
“So beginning of 2020, Reignite had been going for over a year, we had placed 25 women back into work after career breaks into 13 different law firms, we were super excited about the future, we thought we might expand outside of London to Birmingham and the south of England.”
Then came mid-March. And everything stopped. Their clients cut all discretionary spending. Now after the initial shock Lisa says at least they were helped the UK’s furlough scheme. That meant that even though they wouldn’t have any income coming in from clients for a few months – what they thought would be a few – they could keep on their one fulltime employee.
They made themselves useful with online trainings, advice.
Summer came, many people in the UK went away on vacation, the virus didn’t seem as much of a threat. The government told people to go back to their workplaces.
Lisa was gearing up to get back to fulltime business in September. But then virus numbers began to climb.
“Within the space of a week, I think it was the second week in September, when we’d been hoping to sign up our member law firms again, the government said, ‘actually this edict we had where you all need to go back to the office, actually we’ve changed our minds about that,
you need to go back home.’ And I think it sapped the life blood and confidence out of the system. So law firms we’d been hoping to sign up as members again in September suddenly said, ‘we’re really keen but it won’t be until next year.’ Now we’re not just a small business, we’re a tiny business, we’re like well I’m not sure we can continue for another six months with no income, maybe we have to pull the plug. I think I was in denial about that for a good four or five weeks and then come October I was really low, and I thought this business has no future, we had to let our one employee go, which was really sad – and we just sat back and licked our wounds for a couple of weeks and felt very sorry for ourselves, if I’m perfectly honest.”
Right around then I came across one of Lisa’s wound-licking posts on LinkedIn. She felt like yet again, women were getting shafted as companies dropped commitments they’d made only months earlier. But she didn’t feel sorry for herself for long. Her posts soon took on their usual bracing tone. She began to focus on what people could do with their careers in a pandemic, not what they couldn’t.
One article of Lisa’s that really caught my eye was about how women should do the next lockdown differently. In it she cited a survey by the magazine The Lawyer – among other things it had asked male and female law firm partners how they had fared during the first UK lockdown in the spring. Including which social media networks they’d been using.
“And they found men were much more likely to be more active on LinkedIn than they were pre pandemic, and women were less active on LinkedIn but more active on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter…so that made me cross again because I thought you know we’ve only ourselves to blame here if we choose to use this time to faff around on Facebook when our male colleagues are on LinkedIn maintaining their networks, building their personal profile, keeping up with that’s going on with their clients.
So the article I wrote began - the context of it was let’s use this lockdown productively, don’t make the mistakes we made last time, let’s think about how you can use the time, so make sure your partner shares the burden if you’ve got one – a partner that is, not a burden – be on LinkedIn, picked the phone up and reconnect with people, don’t sit back and moan…no one’s on a plane anymore so the people you want to talk to will pick the phone up. Pick the phone up, speak to them.”
AM-T: “Yeah, well I want to ask you about the phone actually. Because you and I remember a time when in business it was normal in business to be on a lot of phone calls…and as a journalist it still is, although a lot has gone to email and messaging apps, but picking up the phone when you’re on deadline is still a good way to get hold of people…so it hasn’t become as alien to me as it has to others in different spheres of work. But I think if you didn’t grow up using the phone as part of your daily life it can be a bit scary to pick up the phone and talk to somebody.”
“Yeah, and you just have to do it. When I first started work as a 22 year-old you’d have to pick up the phone to chase some letters that were due from a client. And I’d sit there with this phone in front of me and I’d have to wait till there was no one in the room to hear my conversation, before I dared pick the phone up and have this conversation, but it’s the best way of developing a relationship with people, actually talking to them. A lot of what Reignite does is recruiting. You can’t recruit people without talking to them…they want to talk to you about what’s that client like? I want to ask, what are your concerns? You don’t get that flavour from an email. So you have to. And although it’s scary it’s so efficient – a conversation you can resolve in 5 minutes on a phone call, what might take you half an hour or more if you’re faffing about on email trying to sort out a time to meet.”
I do think trying to connect with someone senior to you has a bit of an art to it. I’m not sure picking up the phone and calling them out of the blue is necessarily going to win them over. But I do think on the whole the phone is underrated.
We are of course spending a ton of time on video, and Lisa thinks being plunged into someone’s home is democratizing professional relationships.
“That I think has taken away a lot of barriers and made things a lot more informal. So if I think about going to see a client before, I’d have to arrange a meeting, and then go to their offices, often they were shared offices so you’d have to get past some barrier, go up the right escalator, get past another set of receptionists, it was all very formal. You’re handing your name over, getting a name badge, getting in a lift that could take you to the wrong floor if you’re not careful…then you meet someone in a meeting room where there’s a power equation, and someone pours the coffee, or gives you a biscuit or not. Whereas if I arrange to meet a client they’re in their own home and I can see the washing in the background and their kids are coming in or the dog is barking…it just reminds you that we’re all human.”
AM-T: “I want to go back to that really interesting finding of where male lawyers were spending their time in lockdown on social media, which was on LinkedIn…and where the women were, which was on what I think of as the more social networks…but why do you think it is that women were or are spending their time on those networks more than LinkedIn? There might be a few reasons for that, have you thought about that?”
“One, they’ve never used it so they don’t appreciate how useful it still is. And number two even when they do appreciate it’s useful, I’ll say to people, why are you not on LinkedIn and they’ll say well I’m a bit embarrassed, why are you embarrassed? Well people I used to work with are really senior and look at me I’ve done nothing for 5 years – I’ll go OK, forget the done nothing bit, the fact that the people you used to work with are really senior, is a good thing. Because people generally are quite nice, and when you connect with them and tell you what you’re doing and ask for a bit of help, they’ll help you. And the connections you make early on in your career, they will grow with you. And it doesn’t matter if you haven’t spoken to them for 10, 15 years, they’ll remember you. I’ve found this definitely, and they will connect with you.”
I agree about LinkedIn. I used to think of it as a sort of online CV and not much more. But until last summer I’d spent a long time paying hardly any attention to it and when I came back I realized it had morphed into a social network a lot like the others – or at least it’s trying to be.
And I don’t want to harp on this too much but those findings about male and female lawyers, and which social media they were using in lockdown. As I said to Lisa after all these weren’t women lawyers who were on a career break, they were working just like the men, and maybe part of the reason women were on the other networks more is because they were sharing their frustrations, and you’re going to do that on Facebook or Instagram.
“Yeah, yeah, and probably getting some tips on home schooling, and it was probably a bit of a release valve. But then it comes back to taking ownership of your own career and your own future.
Sweeping generalization alert – I think a lot of times women, especially if you have children, you’re responsible for so much and often your career does take a bit of a back seat because you’re looking after three people’s diaries, two people’s educations, a home, all that…I’ve done my fair share of moaning about how it’s not fair we were excluded from a lot of the informal networks where business goes on – like the pub, the racecourse, the rugby match, but those things not going on now, so we can’t really moan about that any more. But if you don’t want to do those things what are you gonna do to promote yourself and to progress your career? No one’s gonna do it for you. That’s one of the things I realized back in the autumn when I was licking my wounds feeling really sorry for myself that the Reignite Academy which I’d worked so hard to build was going to fail. And I thought well, it will if I continue to sit here and feel sorry for myself. The only way we’ll get this going again is if I start picking up the phone to clients, talking to them about the year ahead, telling them what fabulous candidates we’ve got and doing this for myself, along with Steph my business partner.”
So after her initial weeks-long slump in the Autumn, Lisa began doing just that. And it worked. Are they as busy as she’d like? No. But all is not doom and gloom either. They had some new law firms sign up as members, which gave them membership fees. They placed six women in jobs, that got them placement fees.
And so much of what she’s been doing all along with both her businesses is connecting with people who are in were in her orbit. She says it comes back to that thing of just keeping in touch with people…
“My original business was called She’s Back, which was about shining a light on the potential of women in all sorts of professions who’d lost their careers in some way…the biggest thing I learned in setting that business up and then through Reignite, your network, or your connections – because women hate the word networking - they’re one of the most powerful assets you have, and as women I don’t think we always use it as much as we should. So they’re there. The people you’ve worked with, worked for, the people you’ve come across, the charity work you do, there’s so many people who can help you if you know how to tap into them, and use them, and help them back…but you have to use the online channels to find them now because we are stuck at home.”
Sometimes you don’t even have to know the person. This is a story about the power of social media and as I told Lisa, it took me completely by surprise.
AM-T: “I actually got a job last year from a tweet. Which I would never have expected. And all I did was write about somebody’s work, I linked to this article he’d written, and I tagged him, he wrote about podcasting which I do tweet about sometimes…I’d done this a few times over the course of a few months, and after one particular tweet I got an email in my inbox essentially saying would you like to work with me on a podcast? And I was stunned, because all I was doing was sharing his work and tagging him so that he knew about it.”
“Mmm, it’s just about being a little bit savvy – my friend Deb who I wrote She’s
Back the book with, she calls it being at the Net, just being ready, being on it, she’s a little live wire, she’s from Yorkshire as well, just being really savvy and ready to be there and say something and be useful.”
Sometimes when you’re ready, serendipity strikes.
Recently I posted something on social media on a topic that is close to my heart – getting asked to work for free. I did a whole show on this back in 2014 that some of you will remember. I came across something online the other week – basically it’s 4 points with which to politely respond if someone asks you to work for nothing.
AM-T: “And you a couple of months ago wrote a whole post about this. And I’d like to talk about this because it’s something I believe women are still approached and asked to do more often than men are. Because women, sorry people, expect women to be nice and agreeable and pliable and frankly they expect women to do things for free in a way they don’t expect men to. And you said you were willingly doing it.”
“Oh I did loads for free, because when I first set up my excuse/rationale was ‘this will help me build my brand.’ But that’s only useful if it helps you build your brand in a way that’ll ultimately help earn you money. And the danger of being on a podium or a panel where you give away your expertise for free, is you enhance your reputation for being great on a panel where you give away your expertise for free.
So I learned the hard way, and in the article I talk about my aha moment, I was speaking at a breakfast meeting for a multinational consulting firm - they’d asked me to come and speak to this team of people. For nothing. And of course I did because it was building my brand with this multinational firm. And I got there, and I had to move heaven and earth to get to Central London, it was at Fortnum and Mason so it was really posh – moved heaven and earth to get there for 7.30, we had breakfast, I spoke, everyone had a fabulous time. And I looked around and I realized the man on the door at Fortnum and Mason, the driver of the tube, the people sitting round and eating, the people serving, cooking the breakfast, clearing everything away, every single person was being paid to be there apart from me.
And when it came to the end of the breakfast, someone made a very nice speech, thank you very much for your time, and they gave me a mug with my initial on it, L, which is for Lisa and it’s also for Loser. I took this mug home and I have my tea in it every morning, because it was nobody’s fault that I was doing that for free except for mine. They’d asked and I’d said yes. I never even said to them, do you have a budget? Here’s my day rate, this is what I charge. just went and…so that was a big ‘aha’ for me.”
As she became firmer, better at saying ‘what’s your budget?’ and thus getting paid to talk, she noticed something else: that when people had to pay to attend the event – online or off – almost everyone showed up. When the event was free, the room might be half empty, which felt pretty insulting to her. We all tend to value what we pay for.
Lisa had another clarifying moment a bit later on. She was asked to give a half hour talk at a company.
“And I said to Melinda my business partner, I said I’m not sure how much to charge for this because it’s only thirty minutes. And she said Lisa, it’s not the thirty minutes you’re gonna spend speaking, it’s the 30 years’ experience you’ve had that allow you to say something useful in those 30 minutes. I thought oh, love that way of looking at it!”
And it’s true. If you’re a knowledge worker it’s your knowledge that people are after – and many years of experience build up a lot of knowledge.
But of course there are going to be times when you make an exception, like when a cause or a person means a lot to you and you’re happy to offer your services.
But even for causes that Lisa’s really into, she’s careful now to ask about the budget first.
“I’ve done a couple of talks for people’s women’s networks where I’ve gone OK I’d love to do this, this is what I can offer, do you have a budget? Or, this is my day rate. What I have to do is go, this is my rate, and then shut up. That’s very hard. Because my tendency would be: this is my day rate, but of course you might not want to pay that and I can offer you a discount…you start to talk yourself out of it if you’re not careful. And I’ve found that works really well – the shutting up bit, and knowing what your fee is.”
It is really hard to do when you’re used to undermining yourself, but practice makes perfect.
AM-T: “Before we go let’s come back to the pandemic and the situation we’re all in now. I’ve never been a fan of January. I’ve never been one of these ‘new year, new you’ people. I’ve actually always found it hard to drag myself through January. To me, this year it feels like more of the same, it doesn’t feel like a normal new year at all. And I’m finding it even harder than usual to be optimistic, about what’s coming up given a) where we are with the virus in the US and UK and b) obviously the stuff that’s going on politically in the US is horrendous and…oof…”
“I know what you mean. I hate January. But I guess I’m treating it each day at a time, But I’m also, I am really positive about the future and that’s because of where we started actually. The world has changed. Yes, we’ve got to get people vaccinated. And until we get mass vaccinations we’re not gonna ease the pressure on the NHS here and allow people to get back to any form of normal. But that is happening, we’ve just got to be a little bit patient. If I look to business the world has changed, remote working is much more the norm, which is a game changer for a lot of people, and for women in particular. I am seeing businesses start to take seriously the need to find ways of attracting and retaining different sorts of talent. Which is really positive – be that diff because they’re of different ethnicity or female in a traditionally male world. I genuinely – I could be completely wrong, but I genuinely think there’s an appetite for that. And as long as I do something each day that I feel nudges us a little closer to having a business to go back to. My expectations are now very, very low – it doesn’t take a lot for me to go, that was good!”
Lisa Unwin.
And if you’re interested in listening to more on some of the stuff we discussed in this show you can hear The Hell of Networking – that’s episode 40…and episode 52, When Women Work For Free.
That’s The Broad Experience for this time.
Please keep telling your friends about the show…word of mouth has been hugely helpful in building an audience. Thank you again to all my supporters. You can donate any amount at the support tab at TheBroadExperience.com and if you can part with 50 bucks I’ll send you a Broad Experience T-shirt – ladies cut. You can see that on the website.
I’m Ashley Mline-Tyte. Thanks for listening. See you next time.